2004-07-20 dnia 17:11 #2127
tMQ, czy PH oralnee tak samo wpływają negatywnie na w1trobe jak SAA (methyl/alkil) ?2004-07-20 dnia 17:42 #85115
a są pH w zastrzykach 😐
wszystkie PH ktore maja dodana grupe metylowa do substancji zawartej w ph są hepatoksyczne, a wiec takze maja negatywny wplyw na watrobe2004-07-20 dnia 18:03 #85116
PROZAC… w zastrzykach nie ma, ale jest cos takiego, jak transdermale Poza tym, jesteś pewnien, że do PH dodawana jest grupa metyloważ2004-07-21 dnia 07:16 #85141
IMO tak – są metabolizowane do wlasciwych hormonow w watrobie, tak dla ciekawych:
Do they have side effects?
Yes. Prohormones can have the same side effects as anabolic steroids, and are dependant upon the user as to which side effects one might experience. Some side effects are acne, hair loss, breast tissue enlargement, and prostate swelling. The potential for these side effects does exist, but it can be reduced if one uses proper precautionary measures (see below). Generally, if a person is genetically predisposed to a side effect it will occur (i.e.: if someone has a history of male pattern baldness in the family, it could be assumed that this could be a side effect experienced if certain prohormones are used)
Which prohormones convert to which compounds?
Here is a list
4 androstenediol (4AD or 4diol) converts to testosterone
19 nor-4-androstenediol (Nordiol) converts to nortestosterone or nandrolone
1 androstenediol (1AD) converts to 1-testosterone (dihydroboldenone)
1,4 androstenedione and 1,4 androstenediol (1,4andro or Boldione) converts to boldenone and slightly converts to estrogen (the diol version does not convert to estrogen)
5 alpha androstenediol (5AA) converts to DHT
3 beta androstenediol (3 beta) converts to DHT
3 alpha androstenediol (3 alpha) converts to DHT
4 hydroxy androstenedione converts to 4 hydroxy testosterone which is an aromatize inhibitor (blocks formation of estrogen)
7-KETO-DHEA does not convert to any active anabolic compounds
1-testosterone (1-test) is already an active compound and does not need to undergo conversion
Compounds you want to avoid.
5 androstenediol (5AD or 5diol) converts to testosterone at a very low rate and is an estrogen agonist
4 androstenedione (andro) converts to testosterone and estrone (estrogen)
19 nor-4-androstenedione (norandro) converts to nortestosterone and estrogen
DHEA converts to androstenedione and can be converted to all other hormones
Pregnenolone converts to progesterone and can be converted to all other hormones
How do prohormones work?
Basically, when they are administered into the system, they are broken down in the liver and converted to their hormone via certain enzymes. There have been a number of quotes describing how much of the hormone is converted, but there is no definitive answer as to how much of the prohormone is converted into its active. Once a certain amount is created, the enzymes used for conversion become saturated and no more can be converted. This is true with all the compounds, except for 1-testosterone which really isn’t a prohormone.
How can I avoid some of the potential side effects associated with prohormones?
There are certain ancillary compounds available to treat potential side effects of prohormones. Below is a list I compiled which is pretty basic and should help clarify some of the issues of side effects.
The prostate is an organ at the neck of the bladder where it joins the urethra. It is responsible for controlling urination and ejaculation. Common symptoms of prostate problems are frequent or difficult urination, dribbling when urinating, erection difficulty, and pain in that general area. Either a rise in estrogen or DHT levels from increased testosterone, etc., probably causes this. If you have ongoing prostate issues, it’s best not to use prohormones, though potentially the use of nordiol might be acceptable.
Saw Palmetto Extract – Usual dosage is 160mg several times daily
Beta sisterol or plant phytosterols – 300mg several times daily
Flax seed oil – anywhere from 5-20 tblspoons daily
Proscar/Propecia – blocks the conversion of testosterone to DHT. Ineffective with DHT derived hormones (1-test, 1ad, 5aa, etc)
Spironolactone – an anti androgen. Best not used for this, but used topically (more below)
Acne is very common on prohormone cycles, and can range from mild to moderate. It will go away once post cycle treatment concludes, or within a few weeks of cession of the product. The best way to treat acne is with the soaps available at your local grocery store or pharmacy. Just pick up some Neutrogena or whatever and scrub your face twice a day or use the body wash.
Hair loss is caused by increased levels of DHT. Since DHT receptors are heavy on the top of the scalp, some people will notice a lot of shedding or a receding hairline on some cycles. There are various treatments for this; the most common is topical Spironolactone available from Nizoralman or Dr. Lee. The 2% will work as a preventative measure, while the 5% will attempt to help grow some hair back. There are also other methods, such as azelaic acid or Nizoral shampoo, but they are not proven to be effective as spiro is.
If you are concerned you are losing your hair and are currently taking something to help prevent it, prohormones are probably not the best idea. If still interested in using prohormones, Nordiol might be the best option available to you.
Gynocomastia, or development of the breast tissue, is sometimes common among aromatizing (converting to estrogen) prohormones. The first symptoms are puffy and itchy or swollen nipples. If you start to notice this while on a cycle, you need to start taking Nolvadex immediately. Formasin/Aromazap/Formastat might work, but 6oxo is not going to help this in most cases, so Nolvadex should ALWAYS be on hand for this situation. It is highly available, not very expensive, and not illegal to posses, so there is no reason not to have it. Don’t wait and order some when you start to get the first signs of gyno, because Nolvadex needs to be taken as soon as symptoms of gyno appear. Start taking 40mg a day until the symptoms subside, and you may want to continue to take 10mg the rest of your cycle as precaution.
Prohormones have to pass through your liver in order to convert, no matter what the route of administration, so higher levels of liver enzymes in the blood is common during a cycle. Many steroid users take Milk Thistle and ALA at high doses to combat this, and if you are concerned it would be a good idea to take one or both of these to help that. Problems with kidneys have not been an issue to my knowledge, but steroid users will often also take cranberry juice extract to help with that.
Some people report mild or moderate depression, especially post cycle when using 6oxo. This can be cured with prescription drugs such as Zoloft, Prozac, Paxil, etc. It can also be fought with herbal supplements such as St Johns Wort, 5-HTP or Sam-E. If you go with the herbal route, St Johns Wort should be 300mg 2-3 times daily, 5-HTP at 100mg several times daily, or 100-200mg of Sam-E once daily. You can combine all three if depression is extreme, otherwise my pick would be St. Johns Wort.
Many users report testicular shrinkage during a cycle. The testes will come back to full size once you start post cycle. If they do not, then it’s recommended you take Clomid and possibly even HCG to help restore them.
Some people report having trouble falling asleep or staying asleep on a cycle. My recommendation is to take 1mg to 3mg of melatonin 30 minutes before bed time. Some other options are Valerian root, GABA, Tylenol PM or Kava Kava (potentially stressful on the liver).2004-07-21 dnia 09:26 #85143
maja negatywny wplyw na watrobe2004-07-21 dnia 11:08 #85147
Szajse… 😐2004-07-21 dnia 11:40 #85149
uwazam ze tak naprawde to pomiedzy zajadaniem się prohormonami (bo są one dostepne w sklepach i legalne) a rozsadnym braniem sterydow smialo można postawic znak rownooci!!
choc przyznam ze moja wiedza na temat prohormonow z racji mojego negatywnego stosunku do nich jest minimalna!2004-07-21 dnia 16:07 #85153
jedyne to co przemawia za PH to to, ze wiesz, ze kupisz oryginal2004-07-21 dnia 16:15 #85154
Myola3em, że chociaz one nie mają grup metylowych i nie szkodz1 w1trobie2004-07-21 dnia 16:57 #85157
no tak kupujac ph masz pewnosc 😀
ale dla mnie to nie argument bo mam dobre dojscie 😆2004-07-21 dnia 17:58 #85161
No dobra, to inaczej. Czy transdermale szkodz1 w1trobie?2004-07-22 dnia 06:57 #85174
1. Transdermal basics
Q: What is transdermal deliveryż
Transdermal delivery is a method of delivering active drugs through the skin barrier, and is in many cases superior to other forms of delivery (oral, sublingual, etc). It involves applying active substances (such as prohormones) dissolved in a carrier (a substance or blend of substances designed to promote delivery of the active ingredient past the skin barrier).
Q: Why is transdermal administration of prohormones superior to oral administration?
There are numerous reasons why transdermal delivery can be preferable. The first is that transdermal delivery allows prohormones to avoid first pass metabolism in the liver. Most prohormones are readily destroyed in the digestive tract and liver, often making the dosages required (and money spent) much higher compared to transdermal delivery. It is estimated that transdermal prohormones have a 30-40% absorption rate, compared to 5-15% for oral prohormones. Also, certain hormonal substances may be toxic to the liver, and transdermal delivery significantly lessens this. Secondly, orally delivered prohormones have very short half-lives and must be taken 3-4 times daily. Not only is this inconvenient, but it means that during certain periods (such as sleep) blood levels of the hormone will be very low. Transdermal delivery effectively leads to a steady release over 12 or more hours, solving both of these problems.
Q: What are the advantages and disadvantages of transdermal administration of prohormones when compared to sublingual/nasal administration?
Sublingual (absorption in the mouth, like a lozenge) and nasal delivery is limited by the amount that can be absorbed by the mucous membranes. The maximum amount of hormone that can be delivered is around 25 mg, and blood levels are elevated for 2-3 hours, compared to ~12 for transdermal. Therefore, sublingual and nasal prohormones must be dosed at least 5 times a day to be effective. However, sublingual/nasal delivery delivers 80-90% of the actives to the bloodstream, making it a very efficient carrier. A combination of transdermal application (for steady blood levels) and sublingual/nasal application (to spike blood levels, particularly pre-workout) could be effective.
Q: If I apply a transdermal hormone to a certain muscle group, does it increase strength in that particular muscle group?
Transdermal prohormones are delivered systemically, so applying them to a particular area will not cause disproportionate strength gain in that area. The exception is products that are geared toward local delivery, such as Sytenhance.
Q: Should transdermal prohormones be cycled differently than oral prohormones?
Cycles with transdermal prohormones should be the same length as one would use with oral prohormones, and post-cycle recovery should remain the same. The primary differences are how often you will administer the prohormone (two times daily as opposed to three or four) and the dose used.
Q: What are the dosages for transdermally administered hormones?
First off, it should be noted that the listed dosage and duration on product labels is often conservative. Also, dosage will vary on stacking, level of experience, and many other factors. Here are some general guidelines
1-testosterone: 200-500 mg
19-norandrostenediol: 400-800 mg
4-androstenediol: 400-600 mg
3-alpha androstenediol: 50-150 mg
3-beta androstenediol: 200-500 mg
4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane): 50-200 mg
androstenetrione (6-OXO): 150-500 mg
7-OXO-DHEA (7-Keto): 100 mg
Note: Much of the dosage information comes from the prohormone FAQ, by pogue.
Q: What are the differences between the Dermabolics carrier and other carriers?
The Dermabolics carrier is identical to the carrier developed by Avant Labs except it does not contain carbomer, a thickening agent (due to the fact that it is a spray instead of a lotion). For a discussion of the science behind this carrier as well as comparison to some other products, see Battle of the Transdermal Prohormones by Par Deus.
2. Application tips
Q: When, where and how should transdermals be applied?
Transdermals should be applied as close to twelve hours apart as possible. An ideal time to apply is after showering or bathing. Scrubbing with a luffa, wash cloth, or sponge beforehand improves delivery, as does shaving the area of application. Ideal areas of application are those with thin skin, such as wrists, top of feet, upper arms, chest, back, or legs. Larger amounts will require larger application areas. If possible, latex gloves should be worn during application. These can be purchased at most pharmacies. It is also a good idea to shake the bottle before application to mix the ingredients. Spray or pump the lotion onto the hand and then rub into the application area. Afterwards, wash your hands with soap. Five minutes should be allowed for the transdermal to dry after contact with clothes or other objects.
Q: After applying the transdermal, should I wait before working out, showering, or swimming?
Yes. Water can wash off the transdermals making them less effective. You should wait at least half an hour before any of these activities, and ideally 1-2 hours. Also if you shower after application it is best not to scrub the area of application.
Q: Should I avoid contact with other people in the area of application?
Most definitely, especially females and children. This applies primarily if you are using a prohormone or steroid. Contact with the area may result in delivery of active hormone to the person contacted. If you think it will become a problem, it is best to keep the area covered (saran wrap over the area of application will work), or only use areas that will be covered with clothing as application spots. Also, certain application areas (such as the back of the legs) are less likely to be contacted.
Q: My transdermal product is resulting in rash/skin irritation. Is this normal? How do I avoid this?
Some people experience skin irritation or rashes from transdermals, especially those containing certain active ingredients. 1-testosterone is particularly caustic, and latex gloves are a must when applying this substance (even after washing hands thoroughly small amounts can remain that may get in the eyes or other sensitive areas, and it is quite painful). If latex gloves are not available, you can at least use a sandwich bag. The best way to avoid irritation regardless of the source is to rotate the area of application – one day apply to the feet, another to the upper arms, and so on. You can also apply lotion to areas of application not in use.
Q: Can I add more prohormones to a transdermal prohormone product?
Yes, but it will become saturated at a certain point. Also, increasing the concentration may reduce the relative effectiveness. If you want a concentration or blend of ingredients that is not available pre-made it is usually better to make your own using a carrier product such as the transport matrix.
Q: How do I make my own transdermal prohormone?
Simply add the hormone powder to the carrier and then shake. If you accidentally put in too much hormone powder heating lightly and shaking vigorously may help. To heat a solution, boil a pot of water and let it cosl to just below boiling. Place the prohormone bottle in the water for a few minutes, remove, then shake.
Q: I am using the Dermabolics carrier. Can adding DMSO increase the efficacy of my transdermal prohormone?
This carrier is quite effective as it is. In theory, adding 5-10% DMSO may increase absorption. However, one will have to put up with the side effects of DMSO (increased irritation, bad breath, etc).
Q: Can transdermal prohormones be dosed more often than two times daily?
If desired, a smaller dose can be used three times daily (every eight hours), but this does not have a clear benefit.
Q: Is it acceptable to use transdermal prohormones in conjunction with topical fat loss products?
Yes, just avoid applying them both in the same area.
Q: Can transdermal prohormones be used along with oral prohormones?
Yes, although if one is doing an intraday cycle (oral prohormones during the day, transdermal overnight) trying to compare oral and transdermal doses can often be difficult. Stacking one prohormone transdermally and another orally is not uncommon.
Q: What is the shelf life of transdermal prohormones?
This depends on the substance; in general the shelf life is 1-2 years. This can be increased by freezing and/or vacuum sealing. If you are planning on stocking up you are better off buying bulk prohormone powders and then mixing them in a carrier before use.
By David Tolson
skopiowalem z jakies strony 😆
moze cos się dowiesz z tego
nie chce mi się tlumaczyc2004-07-22 dnia 07:03 #85175
wlasnie mialem to wkleic
Why is transdermal administration of prohormones superior to oral administration?
There are numerous reasons why transdermal delivery can be preferable. The first is that transdermal delivery allows prohormones to avoid first pass metabolism in the liver. Most prohormones are readily destroyed in the digestive tract and liver, often making the dosages required (and money spent) much higher compared to transdermal delivery. It is estimated that transdermal prohormones have a 30-40% absorption rate, compared to 5-15% for oral prohormones. Also, certain hormonal substances may be toxic to the liver, and transdermal delivery significantly lessens this. Secondly, orally delivered prohormones have very short half-lives and must be taken 3-4 times daily. Not only is this inconvenient, but it means that during certain periods (such as sleep) blood levels of the hormone will be very low. Transdermal delivery effectively leads to a steady release over 12 or more hours, solving both of these problems.2004-07-22 dnia 07:32 #85177
dobrze by bylo jakby ktos to przetlumaczyl, przyda się nie jednemu2004-07-22 dnia 08:48 #85179
ja mi hades zaplaci 50 PLN to mogę posiedziec hehehe
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